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the session is physics sigh and

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interpretation the first speaker is

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Steven Brody stubborn brat Steven Brody

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and I want to mention that not only is

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Ian professor and chair of philosophy at

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the University of Maryland but is also

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we all know him as the editor of the jse

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but we should also note that this is a

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period of transition for the entire

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field because it's appropriate that a

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philosopher may the editor of the

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jayasinghe because we have such a wide

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ranging interest that figure has matured

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in such a sitter in such a way that

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someone like Stephen body is literally

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perfect for shepherding us into the the

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new age of of our field so he'll be

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talking about preliminary investigation

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on the felix circle thank you very much

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it's very strange there's a phosphor to

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feel appropriate for anything as many we

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probably know the late nineteenth and

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early twentieth century was the heyday

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of the Spiritualist movement and during

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that time there is a great deal of

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mediumistic activity going on and

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mediumistic activity occurred in two

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primary flavors that would be mental

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mediumship and physical mediumship

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mental mediumship roughly had to do with

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channeling communications ostensibly

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from the deceased physical mediumship

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had to do with it was also thought of as

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dealing with a kind of communication

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from the deceased but it had to do with

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the production of observable physical

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phenomena like object levitations at

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porting one object from one location to

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another levitations materializations and

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rapping sounds in the sands table or

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around the room you don't see a lot of

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this anymore there are the reasons for

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that but we can't go into that now there

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are still spiritualist groups around

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most the spirits

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this groups are not particularly

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interested in being investigated however

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I found that there was a group in hanau

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Germany not far from Frankfurt

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consisting of spiritists more than

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spiritualist they didn't subscribe to

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the spiritualist religion but many of

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them were interested spiritists they

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believed that they were nevertheless

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communicating with the deceased and they

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were interested in being investigated so

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I got myself to hand out so let me tell

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you a little bit about the felix circle

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i was founded in 2005 originally they

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were interested in just the table

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tilting phenomena and they had been

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reading at least some of the key members

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of the group had been reading works by

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ken bachelor and others about conducting

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table tilting seances and they sought

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not so much as dealing with spirits as a

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kind of psychokinesis by committee there

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are two million people in the group and

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then a bunch of the regulars one is the

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medium the main medium and then the

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circle leader the medium is a

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documentary filmmaker the circle leader

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is a well-known cardiologist in Germany

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works at the Max Planck Institute in at

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several hospitals he's not ready to

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reveal his identity for pretty obvious

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reasons they're both very knowledgeable

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about the original mediumistic

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literature and the the basic bodies of

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evidence and they're also very familiar

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with the secondary literature in fact

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the circulator this is slightly

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embarrassing but I think apart from my

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early writings and temporal logic and

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the philosophy of time he's read

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everything I've ever written so what's

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not to love and he joined the group in

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2007 most of the other regular sitters

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and they range between five and nine

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they're more enthusiasts and they're

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relatively uncritical and they have two

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kinds of sciences they have some

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classical spiritualist seances where the

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medium sits in a curtain Dolph area

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the cabinet and then various things

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issue from there and then they do table

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sittings and i attended one of each and

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i want to describe them to you they're

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the cabinet seances the medium is

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apparently possessed by the personality

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of the lake parapsychologist hans bender

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I need to mention that the medium is

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pretty sophisticated about this he knows

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the hypnosis literature he's read my

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book a multiple personality he knows

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something about association he doesn't

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really believe it's Hans bender but he

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respects the entity or the side of his

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self that is nevertheless taking over at

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these times during the seance so who

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realize there's nothing evidential about

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Holmes bender that comes through the

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medium recognizes this really could just

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be a kind of alter ego so there were two

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investigators myself and Peter Mirage

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from Vienna we had the benefit of a

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grant from the Gilbert Raleigh fund

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administered by the pair of

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psychological association among other

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things the grant paid for a couple of

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Sony high-definition 0x infrared

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camcorders that we hope to use and

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documenting the phenomena the middle of

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a circle leader however were a little

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worried about this first of all they

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were concerned that introducing two

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investigators into the group would

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radically change the psychodynamics of

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the group and it might have an

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inhibitory effect on the phenomena and

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they had that kind of experience before

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and the thought that introducing

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camcorders even in zero light would be

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another negative factor so Peter I

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agreed with the medium and the circle

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leader that the most important thing

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initially was the first of all get

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familiar with the members of the group

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so that they feel comfortable with us

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and then to see a good example of the

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phenomena in the Norris robust way that

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they were accustomed to experiencing it

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we wanted to see what it was that they

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were so excited about and if they felt

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comfortable at any point in allowing us

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to document with our camcorders so much

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the better and we fell

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was an absolutely necessary first step

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in coming to grips with the phenomena

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that they were getting and we could

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always come back later if the situation

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warranted it and impose tighter controls

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this is the house where it all takes

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place this is the home of a mediums

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family the medium lives across the

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street the sales location is in the

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basement it's in what used to be a bomb

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shelter it's a small space this is the

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the area in the basement where the

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cabinet is and the cabinet again is just

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a skirt and off area it's closed when

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the mediums inside and at various points

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he lifts the curtains apart and things

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happen which I'll describe to you these

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are some of the objects used in the

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séances there's first of all this

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trumpet one of the things the old

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spiritualist Sciences is that trumpets

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were reported to float around the room

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this trumpet is made of paper covered

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with plastic tape there's a luminous

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strip on the end so you can see it in

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darkness see its movement anyway and

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this is a luminous plaque placed on top

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of the condo broom and various things

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happen there as well so the phenomena

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that I experienced during the cabinets

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and this was in total darkness first of

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all there was a wind chime hanging in

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the center of the circle and we heard

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after the medium was apparently

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possessed we heard some very mild

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tinkling of the wind chime and then rats

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were coming from all on the seance room

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from behind me from above me all sides

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of the room moving around quite quickly

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in a kind of ratatat tat quality there

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was no room to stand behind any of the

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sitter's to produce these sounds I felt

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various touches even though we were

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holding hands at the time I had on a

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short sleeve shirt and I felt on my arms

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something that didn't feel flesh like

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but it felt solid not sure what it was I

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make no claims about it other than that

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we saw a variety of theories on

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plak usually further like shapes at

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various ports handkerchief was placed on

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the plaque and the finger like shapes

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would pull the handkerchief off then we

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saw movements of the trumpet the trumpet

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was lifted off the floor it moved around

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the circle the large end with the

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luminous trip was porting individually

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toward each of the circle members

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because they each reported that it came

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toward them directly when it came to me

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it came right up to me I thought it was

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going to hit me in the face but it must

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have been only about an inch from my

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face and it stopped there and then you

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saw some ectoplasm okay which was

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material emanating ostensibly from the

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medium and I want to tell you a little

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bit more about that but let me first

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show you some drawings made by one of

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the sitters I couldn't have done this

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myself this is Russell what the finger

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like shapes look like on top of the

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luminous plaque then this happened so we

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were instructed by Hans bender to count

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backwards from 15 and then at five the

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circle leader would turn on a red light

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and the medium was supposed to lift the

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curtains apart and we'd see what we'd

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see so we kind of back from 15 at five

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the lot was turned on and we saw this

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hand coming out of the mediums mouth who

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was white it ended few inches down on

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the wrist and the light was left on for

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a few seconds then it was turned off

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again we counted backwards from fifteen

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one more time at five the light was

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turned on and we saw this at this point

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the thing coming out of the mouth had

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extended all the way to the floor and

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then we turned off the light again we

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try to one more time and what we saw the

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next time was nothing in the mouth but

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there is this white unrealistic hand

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moving on top of the mediums left

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shoulder okay now this was not taken on

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this occasion at a science shortly

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thereafter the circle leader tried

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photographing similar phenomena

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under the red light and this I show you

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I make no claims about this but this is

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roughly what it was looking like at the

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time so this is presumably some stuff

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some stuff coming from the mediums mouth

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with the aid of the medium this is a

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picture of a hand apparently just coming

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out of the the mediums mouth and this

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one as I understand it the hand here it

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doesn't quite look like a human hand and

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the understanding of those who are

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attending at seance was that this was a

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spear hand that was moving the curtain

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slightly aside now you probably have

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some concerns about all of this oh these

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are some efforts we can't talk about

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that now so let me do a kind of point

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counterpoint on some of the perfectly

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reasonable skeptical concerns first of

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all about the rapping sounds one thing

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you need to know is that the cities were

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asked to be noisy ostensibly to

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encourage the phenomena this was part of

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the bachelor door protocol to tell jokes

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sing songs keep it very light don't get

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too invested in success or failure or in

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assuming responsibility for the

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phenomena however of course the noise

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couldn't ask the movement of someone

275
00:11:41,079 --> 00:11:38,239
moving around trying to produce the

276
00:11:42,609 --> 00:11:41,089
wraps on the other hand there was no him

277
00:11:44,859 --> 00:11:42,619
to stand behind me and most of the

278
00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:44,869
others to produce the wraps and also the

279
00:11:48,999 --> 00:11:46,610
sounds moved quickly around the rule and

280
00:11:50,739 --> 00:11:49,009
the ceiling and as I mentioned making

281
00:11:52,780 --> 00:11:50,749
noise is a familiar technique for

282
00:11:53,919 --> 00:11:52,790
minimizing personal involvement and so

283
00:11:57,329 --> 00:11:53,929
on so there's nothing inherently

284
00:11:59,619 --> 00:11:57,339
suspicious in asking for the noise

285
00:12:01,869 --> 00:11:59,629
regarding the trumpet again the cities

286
00:12:03,519 --> 00:12:01,879
were asked to be noisy but of course the

287
00:12:05,769 --> 00:12:03,529
noise could mask the movement of someone

288
00:12:07,749 --> 00:12:05,779
carrying the trumpet around the circle

289
00:12:09,429 --> 00:12:07,759
and at that point the collar groom and

290
00:12:11,169 --> 00:12:09,439
the plaque had been moved away so there

291
00:12:13,569 --> 00:12:11,179
actually was room for someone to stand

292
00:12:16,659 --> 00:12:13,579
in the middle of the circle to move the

293
00:12:18,189 --> 00:12:16,669
object around on the other hand I take a

294
00:12:20,530 --> 00:12:18,199
reasonable question is how could someone

295
00:12:22,030 --> 00:12:20,540
have managed to come so close to each of

296
00:12:24,909 --> 00:12:22,040
the sitter's faces in total darkness

297
00:12:26,829 --> 00:12:24,919
without touching we saw no evidence of

298
00:12:31,470 --> 00:12:26,839
night vision goggles anywhere in the

299
00:12:35,230 --> 00:12:33,670
citizen also asked the type in their

300
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:35,240
legs and not to reach out into the

301
00:12:39,220 --> 00:12:37,010
circle in order to avoid disturbing the

302
00:12:40,750 --> 00:12:39,230
force of the process of course that

303
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:40,760
would prevent disturbing someone who is

304
00:12:45,220 --> 00:12:42,290
trying fraudulently to produce the

305
00:12:46,930 --> 00:12:45,230
phenomena on the other hand we heard the

306
00:12:49,030 --> 00:12:46,940
mediums heavy breathing and talking from

307
00:12:51,130 --> 00:12:49,040
within the cabinet throughout most of

308
00:12:52,510 --> 00:12:51,140
all of this and other sitters were also

309
00:12:56,170 --> 00:12:52,520
talking inaudible from their positions

310
00:12:57,610 --> 00:12:56,180
and no props were discovered and also

311
00:12:59,500 --> 00:12:57,620
it's a familiar thing if you read the

312
00:13:02,680 --> 00:12:59,510
old mediumistic literature it's very

313
00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:02,690
familiar to see reports of mediums

314
00:13:07,660 --> 00:13:05,290
crying out in pain when the material

315
00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:07,670
emanating from them is touched or when

316
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:11,120
the force is disturbed so the medium in

317
00:13:13,930 --> 00:13:12,290
the circle leader were very much

318
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:13,940
immersed in the literature they knew

319
00:13:17,740 --> 00:13:16,250
that that was a possible danger so again

320
00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:17,750
I don't regard that as inherently

321
00:13:23,010 --> 00:13:20,330
suspicious although it certainly leaves

322
00:13:25,450 --> 00:13:23,020
plenty of room for questions and

323
00:13:27,220 --> 00:13:25,460
regarding the ectoplasm I have to say

324
00:13:28,780 --> 00:13:27,230
there was no opportunity to inspect the

325
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:28,790
cabinet after the sitting to see if

326
00:13:32,770 --> 00:13:30,530
there were remaining active plasmic

327
00:13:34,990 --> 00:13:32,780
props the medium after being possessed

328
00:13:36,490 --> 00:13:35,000
and coming out of trance is often we're

329
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:36,500
told physically ill they brought in a

330
00:13:40,900 --> 00:13:38,090
bucket for him to environment into which

331
00:13:42,460 --> 00:13:40,910
he sometimes does we were not showing

332
00:13:45,820 --> 00:13:42,470
the contents of the bucket as far as I

333
00:13:49,210 --> 00:13:45,830
know he didn't vomit this this time on

334
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:49,220
the other hand not a whole lot except

335
00:13:52,330 --> 00:13:50,570
that I can tell you that nothing was

336
00:13:55,060 --> 00:13:52,340
found in the room inspection prior to

337
00:13:57,130 --> 00:13:55,070
the science the medium was ostensibly

338
00:13:58,870 --> 00:13:57,140
controlled and observed by the circle

339
00:14:01,390 --> 00:13:58,880
leader and by another sitter both of

340
00:14:03,730 --> 00:14:01,400
whom I have no reason to distrust I'll

341
00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:03,740
also say just for the record that for

342
00:14:09,820 --> 00:14:06,650
what it's worth my gut reaction to the

343
00:14:12,910 --> 00:14:09,830
medium and the circle leader is to trust

344
00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:12,920
them on the other hand when I think

345
00:14:18,940 --> 00:14:17,690
about my marital history I have to be

346
00:14:24,970 --> 00:14:18,950
very careful about trusting my gut

347
00:14:27,250 --> 00:14:24,980
reactions so so the conclusion so far is

348
00:14:30,310 --> 00:14:27,260
that we have to suspend judgment about

349
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:30,320
the cabinet settings the medium use em

350
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:32,330
the circle leaders preference for lack

351
00:14:37,330 --> 00:14:34,850
of controls it's not inherently

352
00:14:38,770 --> 00:14:37,340
suspicious under the circumstances so

353
00:14:40,420 --> 00:14:38,780
I'd say nothing

354
00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:40,430
physically encouraged suspicion but also

355
00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:42,470
nothing specifically discouraged

356
00:14:47,140 --> 00:14:45,230
suspicion either so as I said earlier I

357
00:14:50,970 --> 00:14:47,150
see the seance as an essential first

358
00:14:55,540 --> 00:14:53,080
all right let me put a little bit about

359
00:14:57,940 --> 00:14:55,550
the table sitting there was first a 20

360
00:14:59,950 --> 00:14:57,950
minute meditation and then the table

361
00:15:02,080 --> 00:14:59,960
started to move in darkness as soon as

362
00:15:05,110 --> 00:15:02,090
all hands were on the table there were 2

363
00:15:07,030 --> 00:15:05,120
45 minute segments the original idea was

364
00:15:09,430 --> 00:15:07,040
to have no recording for the first one

365
00:15:11,290 --> 00:15:09,440
and infrared recording for the second

366
00:15:14,290 --> 00:15:11,300
one however it turned out that one of

367
00:15:16,210 --> 00:15:14,300
the cameras was on accidentally for part

368
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:16,220
of session one and then deliberately for

369
00:15:22,990 --> 00:15:20,690
session too we got ematic we had two

370
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:23,000
cameras for the second session one of

371
00:15:27,490 --> 00:15:24,290
them aimed under the table the other

372
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:27,500
above the table there are dramatic table

373
00:15:31,810 --> 00:15:29,690
movements both times but we only had one

374
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:31,820
full table levitation unfortunately in

375
00:15:37,510 --> 00:15:35,090
total darkness which and no recording

376
00:15:38,950 --> 00:15:37,520
which again seems to support the mediums

377
00:15:40,900 --> 00:15:38,960
and circle leaders concern that

378
00:15:44,350 --> 00:15:40,910
recording might slightly inhibit the

379
00:15:46,630 --> 00:15:44,360
phenomena so let me show you a little

380
00:15:49,540 --> 00:15:46,640
bit of the table movement oh I have to

381
00:15:50,860 --> 00:15:49,550
say about the table levitation this was

382
00:15:52,540 --> 00:15:50,870
quite distinctive for the other table

383
00:15:55,270 --> 00:15:52,550
movements the table movements were quite

384
00:15:59,170 --> 00:15:55,280
vigorous I think if the room have been

385
00:16:00,490 --> 00:15:59,180
any larger the table would have moved

386
00:16:01,930 --> 00:16:00,500
out of the room I don't have a lot of

387
00:16:04,570 --> 00:16:01,940
time left but I want to show you some of

388
00:16:06,730 --> 00:16:04,580
this stuff so bear with me if it you can

389
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:06,740
always ask me questions later when the

390
00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:09,530
table levitated it rose straight up

391
00:16:13,180 --> 00:16:11,120
several inches off the ground stayed

392
00:16:16,420 --> 00:16:13,190
there for three or four seconds it was

393
00:16:20,110 --> 00:16:16,430
obvious to all of us that the table top

394
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:20,120
remain parallel to the floor and there

395
00:16:23,470 --> 00:16:21,770
is no feeling of the table being pushed

396
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:23,480
or lifted the movement was smooth and

397
00:16:26,980 --> 00:16:24,770
sudden as if the table had suddenly

398
00:16:30,430 --> 00:16:26,990
become weightless weightless it was

399
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:30,440
quite distinctive this is the setup we

400
00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:32,210
use the darker table for the actual

401
00:16:37,150 --> 00:16:35,600
occasion oh I also have to tell you they

402
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:37,160
were also looking for what they call

403
00:16:43,449 --> 00:16:42,170
spirit lights I know what you just read

404
00:16:46,780 --> 00:16:43,459
okay so

405
00:16:48,850 --> 00:16:46,790
so they hope to see lights around the

406
00:16:50,439 --> 00:16:48,860
seance room and in fact some lights were

407
00:16:51,790 --> 00:16:50,449
absorbed around my feet and around my

408
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:51,800
testicles which was a source of

409
00:16:58,569 --> 00:16:55,850
considerable hilarity and it tells that

410
00:17:00,220 --> 00:16:58,579
we there's any lights we saw when we

411
00:17:02,379 --> 00:17:00,230
look at the video afterwards I'm not

412
00:17:05,439 --> 00:17:02,389
going to have time to show you that but

413
00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:05,449
we saw some other anomalous phenomena on

414
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:08,510
the high-definition video which I'd be

415
00:17:30,450 --> 00:17:10,250
happy to show you later but let me show

416
00:17:58,180 --> 00:17:35,019
yeah we're joking about my testimony I'm

417
00:17:58,190 --> 00:18:06,150
I

418
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:57,290
ah

419
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:00,930
okay I think that's probably a good

420
00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:03,010
place to stop and I'm happy to take some

421
00:19:13,890 --> 00:19:12,130
questions when people who want to ask

422
00:19:20,370 --> 00:19:13,900
questions please come up here and speak

423
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:20,380
into this Mac absolutely fascinating

424
00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:22,090
please tell me you're going to publish

425
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:24,370
this no I'm not going to publish this

426
00:19:30,090 --> 00:19:28,090
yet I want to wait until we've done a

427
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:30,100
follow-up investigation where we can do

428
00:19:33,390 --> 00:19:31,570
some more infrared recording because

429
00:19:36,810 --> 00:19:33,400
that's obviously essential for the

430
00:19:38,850 --> 00:19:36,820
cabinet seance I don't recall reading

431
00:19:40,410 --> 00:19:38,860
any literature on cabinet sciences

432
00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:40,420
percent I mean unless you're going back

433
00:19:50,610 --> 00:19:42,370
oh yeah that's what I have to go yeah

434
00:19:54,450 --> 00:19:50,620
great thank you I assume that they under

435
00:19:56,070 --> 00:19:54,460
the table video camera was there among

436
00:19:57,780 --> 00:19:56,080
other things to make sure that nobody

437
00:20:00,740 --> 00:19:57,790
was pushing on the underside of the

438
00:20:03,210 --> 00:20:00,750
table during these antics correct yeah

439
00:20:06,030 --> 00:20:03,220
what I haven't had time to do that is to

440
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:06,040
coordinate the above camera shots with

441
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:08,650
the the under camera shots but nothing

442
00:20:13,050 --> 00:20:11,530
untoward was observed and I think next

443
00:20:14,610 --> 00:20:13,060
time they'll try the room is very small

444
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:14,620
so it was hard to get the kind of angle

445
00:20:21,060 --> 00:20:15,970
we wanted obviously you can't see

446
00:20:22,470 --> 00:20:21,070
everybody's hands so funding print if we

447
00:20:24,570 --> 00:20:22,480
get sufficient funding maybe we can

448
00:20:26,910 --> 00:20:24,580
introduce a third camera so i have two

449
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:26,920
cameras above the table one underneath

450
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:31,210
let's see what we can do hi hi um what

451
00:20:38,970 --> 00:20:35,890
are you familiar with other research on

452
00:20:41,010 --> 00:20:38,980
on deceptive methods of doing this type

453
00:20:43,710 --> 00:20:41,020
of thing yeah I know the literature

454
00:20:45,210 --> 00:20:43,720
pretty well again in total darkness

455
00:20:46,410 --> 00:20:45,220
there's not a whole lot you can say

456
00:20:48,210 --> 00:20:46,420
which is why I don't want to reach any

457
00:20:52,730 --> 00:20:48,220
definite conclusions at this stage about

458
00:20:54,570 --> 00:20:52,740
the cabinet seance table levitations are

459
00:20:56,070 --> 00:20:54,580
obviously much more

460
00:20:57,659 --> 00:20:56,080
press of them these kinds of table

461
00:21:00,710 --> 00:20:57,669
movements I don't regard this is

462
00:21:04,409 --> 00:21:00,720
strongly evidential this is just a

463
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:04,419
genuine interest as a curiosity so it

464
00:21:08,250 --> 00:21:06,730
doesn't prove anything because you know

465
00:21:10,110 --> 00:21:08,260
it's very hard to tell looking at this

466
00:21:12,210 --> 00:21:10,120
what's what the difference is

467
00:21:13,980 --> 00:21:12,220
observational II between the muscular

468
00:21:16,380 --> 00:21:13,990
movement involved in trying to move the

469
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:16,390
table and the muscular movement involved

470
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:19,090
or tension involved in trying to keep up

471
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:21,610
with the table the table tilting

472
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:25,690
phenomenon is is is has been done in you

473
00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:27,610
know for real by a number of people

474
00:21:31,769 --> 00:21:29,440
however i'm going to say that this

475
00:21:33,779 --> 00:21:31,779
particular video of the table tilting

476
00:21:35,490 --> 00:21:33,789
phenomenon to me as a person who's

477
00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:35,500
familiar with fraudulent methods and

478
00:21:40,970 --> 00:21:37,510
stuff looks like there could be

479
00:21:44,039 --> 00:21:40,980
potential areas that could be absolutely

480
00:21:45,389 --> 00:21:44,049
that I mean it's fascinating by all

481
00:21:47,460 --> 00:21:45,399
means but I'd love for you to talk to me

482
00:21:48,779 --> 00:21:47,470
afterwards well I'll just say I agree

483
00:21:53,190 --> 00:21:48,789
that this is not even remotely

484
00:21:54,899 --> 00:21:53,200
evidential the circle readers hands were

485
00:21:57,060 --> 00:21:54,909
not placed as I would have liked them to

486
00:21:58,950 --> 00:21:57,070
be these people over here had their

487
00:22:01,350 --> 00:21:58,960
hands very lightly on the table the

488
00:22:03,060 --> 00:22:01,360
circle leader allowed is his wrist to

489
00:22:04,830 --> 00:22:03,070
drop so you can't tell whether he's

490
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:04,840
doing this I think if you study the

491
00:22:09,810 --> 00:22:07,090
video carefully and we have quite a lot

492
00:22:12,149 --> 00:22:09,820
of it it's hard to explain some of the

493
00:22:14,159 --> 00:22:12,159
table movements in terms of the hands

494
00:22:15,629 --> 00:22:14,169
that you can see but there's a lot more

495
00:22:26,460 --> 00:22:15,639
needs to be said thank you very much